Jamming Issue....Suggestions needed

[sccritterkiller]

I am having an issue with my GSG-5. It will eject the shell but as the bolt closes back it catches the spent shell in the bolt, mostly pinching the front of the shell closed, and jamming. I can rotate it 45 degrees to the right side and it will run the whole clip. I tried all the usual suspects, different ammo, different clips, clip positions, cleaning, making sure all screws are properly tightened. Running out of ideas, plus I don't know a lot about these other than they are a blast to shoot. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

:beer:

[Microgunner]

Has the bolt brought a fresh round to the breach when it traps the empty?

[lmao_37]

I was having the same problem (FTE) with my gsg AK47 i sent mine back the ATI to have the ejector tuned as the empty cases were rebounding off a part on the ejection port and going back in to the bolt face and jamming in the boltface.

this is what i posted earlier this year

http://tactical22.net/forum/index.php/topic,570.0.html

[Kilibreaux]

The GSG-5 has two quite strong recoil springs and requires a powerful opening thrust to fully cycle the bolt.  Depending on the load you're using, lubrication, "newness" of springs, and how dirty the action is, it is possible to have such partial recoil issues you describe.  I would venture the least powerful loading I would use would be the high-velocity loads--including bulk packaged, pushing 36-40 grain bullets around 1250 fps, and I have found these to be reliable in my GSG.

[sccritterkiller]

Thanks for all suggestion. I thought I would provide an update.

I finally gave up and called ATI. They stated that the ejector design had been recalled. Apparently the post design, where the ejector sets on the pegs or posts, has been a problem and I needed the riveted ejector upgrade. They assigned me a number and instructed me to send back. I also asked about replacing the front sight hood. When I bought it used it had a ding in it. They told me to stick a letter in the box of what I wanted replaced and contact info in case they had any questions. I did as I was instructed. They received my shipment on 5/19. I received it back yesterday.

Here is the description under Service work preformed on the paper work in addition to the riveted ejector upgrade all completed at no cost.

Disassembled, cleaned and inspected all parts, reassembled receiver with new cocking tube housing and hardware. Reassembled trigger group, reassembled breech with a new housing and hardware and tested operation through 44rds.

I had sent two mags as suggested in my initial phone call.

So far I am impressed. The true test will come this weekend when I go to the farm with a brick of ammo :thumb: I will let ya'll know if I have any problems.

:beer:

[edgecrusher]

i had issues and found federal champions cycled better than all others

[Kilibreaux]

Bear in mind the GSG has all sorts of "drag" on the bolt during operation.  The recoil spring - two of them, have twice the force of the single 10/22 spring.  The hammer spring...drag between the firing pin release lever and bolt, AND if the ejector is not solidly locked down, drag created between it and the bolt.  No wonder the manufacturer "recommends" high velocity ammo and this is doubly true when the gun is new and the springs aren't broken in.

The "classic" indication of underpowered ammo is an empty (fired) case in the chamber with the hammer being cocked and dropped.  Probably the GSG needs a slightly longer ejector just as the Commander version of the 1911 gets a shorter ejector than the Government model because the heavier reciprocating components of the Government model don't have the cyclic energy and thus need an ejector to come into play sooner in the cycle.

The GSG is ONE gun that really benefits from a thousand round "break-in" because all the internals loosen up and "weaken."  On the other hand, a properly modified GSG has about half the normal system "drag" and will be more reliable.

[rodent.22]

Excellent explanation!!! Thanks :thumb:

[sccritterkiller]

Thanks for the info!

I went thru a 700 rds of everything from rem to CCI no issues.

:beer:

[Kilibreaux]

I should mention the need to lube the magazines.  A "dry" lubricant, or graphite will go a long way to helping the magazine spring "lift" the rounds stack in a timely manner.

The GSG cycles FAST and the angle of the presented round is such that a bit of hesitation in the magazine "lift" can mean the difference between high reliability and constant jams.

Also, authentic GSG magazine springs are higher power than ProMag springs and this will certainly make a difference as the springs work in.

A "feed" problem is almost certain to be traced to the magazine timing relative to the bolt's stroke.

An ejection problem is far more complicated because the GSG is working against a lot of "issues."  Weak ammo will generate an empty case lodged in the chamber - reluctant or downright refusing to be withdrawn by the "extractor."  This is because the bolt actually "blows back" without any need, nor regard for the extractor and a weak round will cause a "short stroke" where the case doesn't move back far enough to hit the ejector and is thus shoved back in....the problem is the case exited the chamber still under high pressure, expanded, and when shoved back in became "stuck" to the point where the only way to remove it is a thin blade.

Also, the rounds in the magazine create an interference with the extracting case....as the bolt comes back and the empty case rides over the rounds stack, the case can become dislodged from the breech face and fail to exit the gun.  Once stripped from the bolt the case loses any directional "inertia" and tends to flop around in the chamber causing various jams.  THIS is reduced by a fast-cycling bolt that snatches the empty case over the rounds stack faster than the upward pressure can influence it.

The GSG - as delivered, has frictional drag between the firing pin release and release plate that saps system energy during recoil and chambering.

Anytime the bolt rides OVER a cartridge the problem lies in the magazine.

Then add hammer cocking resistance and hammer drag as the bolt closes.

THEN add twin recoil springs that EACH provide more closing force than the single spring of a 10/22, except at full closure where springs are weakest and the hammer is "rebounded" a half inch behind the bolt.  The heavier springs are a "fix" to compensate for lack of the hammer mass and spring resting against the bolt, but the end result is even more added cyclic resistance.

Add in the frictional resistance of the rounds being fed, a sluggish magazine spring lift, and there are a lot of ways the GSG can malfunction.

[dizzny1]

Hey kill I got a question for ya. We have talked over and over about these huge oversized recoil springs, is there anything we can do to easy some of that tension? like you said each of the dual recoil springs has 2wice the power of a 10/22, it would be nice to figure out how to eliminate some of that power to get it down to a happy medium, any thoughts?

[Kilibreaux]

Well...AFTER the hammer strut has been modified to keep the hammer in contact with the bolt rather than a 1/4" of "free-flop"  one could experiment with removing one recoil spring and running just a single spring.  Of course the offset single spring will work just fine (just like it does on the 10/22), and in fact I've already tested this in my own GSG.

This would slow down the bolt's reciprocation time and would certainly give the magazine spring more "time" to lift the rounds stack before the bolt comes slamming forward.

Since my GSG no longer has any components that induce drag on the bolt other than the hammer, it will operate quite well with just one spring, HOWEVER, the GSG was designed to work with high velocity ammo, whereas the 10/22 was designed with most .22LR ammo was "standard velocity" or about 1000 fps.  For the GSG this means that if the gun works with both springs - meaning it fully cycles, kicks the empty out, and chambers consistently, there would be no reason to run one spring.  By comparison, the introduction of buffer components for the 10/22 is an aftermarket "solution" to deal with the fact that most 10/22's these days are living on a steady diet of high velocity ammo which causes excessive battering of the receiver by the bolt, via the rear cross pin, BECAUSE this is an easier, less expensive, and less involved approach than fitting a stronger recoil spring.  My point is that the GSG was genuinely built to handle the "heavy stuff" and contrary to a lot of non-engineer nay-sayers, the GSG's internal design is pretty darn sturdy and will hold up to a lot of high velocity ammo, and even a generous diet of hypervelocity stuff, though I recommend hypervel stuff be used sparingly in the interest of parts longevity.

While some might presume pulling a recoil spring would be dangerous...and it COULD BE under the wrong conditions, if the hammer strut has been modded, the gun will NOT "blow up" from early breech face-to-chamber separation.  You see, it's the HAMMER, by virtue of it's mass, spring force, and leverage, that actually provides the most important initial resistance to chamber opening.  At full - or nearly so, extension, the recoil springs provide LITTLE bolt closing force which is why OEM GSG's have a "reputation" for rim/case failures due to the breech face separating from the chamber "too early" in the pressure phase.  Where the recoil springs REALLY come into play is after the first third of reward bolt stroke, but mostly AFTER the hammer has been successfully cocked.  At near full compression the recoil springs provide that valuable "deceleration" on the bolt before catapulting it forward again...and here, the twin springs are both good - and bad.  If they provide too much power, then that power will be most evident during the last third of the compressive phase, meaning "short-stroking."  It will also mean the bolt will be kicked forward much faster, possibly faster than the magazine spring can lift the next round into place.  Also, the bolt will slam home faster - harder, with more wear and tear on the system, AND will be more likely to induce a "slam-fire" due to jarring when the bolt hits home, the trigger is still held to the rear, and the sear arm is unblocked and potentially capable of being "knocked lose" if the factory sear arm spring and factory sear-to-hammer interface is extant.

So pulling a spring MIGHT be something some people are interested in....and if so, here's how to approach it.  First, DO the hammer strut mod!!!!!

Second, buy some "shok-buffs" like those sold for the 1911...doesn't have to be a perfect fit on the recoil spring guide rod.  Disassemble and remove the outside (right side) spring and replace with a couple of shok-buffs on that rod...yes you CAN "stack them" as needed until you feel the bolt making contact with the shok-buff during cycling.  NOW you have a single spring, but you also have the shok-buff to deal with late decelerative forces which is pretty much the way the 10/22 works when equipped in the same manner.

Grab a box of STANDARD velocity ammo and test your set-up...if it cycles 100%, meaning EJECTS 100% you've got a good setup, and you can then experiment with high-vel ammo.

Now, having shot EVERYTHING from my Ruger 10/22 for many years with no shok-buff, and the factory OEM spring I doubt you need spend a lot of time worrying about high-vel, or hyper-vel ammo use, but the above guidelines are just one way to proceed to build confidence that the gun will "run" with one spring and not blow up.

For my part I already KNOW the gun will run on one spring 'cause mine does it, but the CRUCIAL point is the hammer strut MUST BE MODIFIED FIRST!

Another reason for possibly running a single spring would be if one desires to use standard weight subsonic ammo (really standard vel ammo).  Even with the added breech thrust provided by a suppressor, the gun may not cycle unless it's running a single spring.  If one chooses to use Aguila 60 grain subsonic WITH a suppressor then I HIGHLY recommend keeping BOTH recoil springs!

[Kilibreaux]

I need to add that people should be aware that when it comes to reciprocating, blow-back, recoil operated systems, "faster" is generally not "better" for the system.

The faster a bolt cycles, the higher are its decelerative forces, thus an increase in parts wear or damage.

When trying to "magnumize" various calibers people usually think in terms of "opening forces" without regard to the overall system forces.  For example:  If I install an 18 lb recoil spring in my 1911 to handle heavier than stock slide opening forces, I am also subjecting the frame to more stress by the harder CLOSING forces.

The GSG is the same.  Standard velocity loads generate around 250 "G" of decelerative slide force - not inclusive of recoil spring damping.

High velocity loads are looking at around 375 "G" and HYPER velocity loads are well in excess of 500 "G" of slide decelerative force - at least twice the force exerted by standard velocity ammo.

Slide cycling speed with hypervel ammo can be less than 1/1000th of a second.

This means the slide CLOSES with considerable speed and force!

This explains WHY it matters that certain guns are "rated" to handle certain loads.  A gun certified to digest high velocity loads MIGHT be able to cycle standard vel loads, but maybe not, and if not, this is not an indictment of the gun....it's actually a credit.

A gun designed and "sprung" to handle standard velocity ammo - firing high speed ammo, will be subjected to much higher recoiling AND chambering forces, limiting parts life.

The point of this is to say that recoil springs should be selected/installed based on the premise of fully cycling the action with the rated ammo, and as long as a GSG feeds reliably with the "spec" ammo the springs should probably be left alone.

IF one desires to shoot a steady diet of LIGHTER loads, then reducing spring force by either removing one, or replacing two with lesser powered springs would be indicated.

MILITARY weapons can, and usually are "under sprung," meaning they tend to cycle fast and hard, but this enhances short-term field reliability and the Military can afford to replace guns as they go out of spec.  Civilian guns tend to start out with stiffer springs and higher potential for short-cycling because the average person buys  gun, shoots a few boxes of ammo after which the "new" has worn off.

[Kilibreaux]

Testing has shown that high velocity ammo causes "peening" of the bolt housing when using a SINGLE spring.

Consider higher performance springs if you intend to use Hyper-velocity ammo in your GSG-5/522.

[Audi46]

Hello guys. New to the forum. I attempted to remove of my bolt springs last night after i completed the hammer strut mod and after when i tried to close the bolt there was now not enough force to strip a fresh round out of the magazine?? What did i do wrong? I put the spring back in to run 2 and it stripped a round out just fine. What am i missing on the whole removing one bolt spring mod? Thanks!